Teri Hales 0:15 Welcome to the Emancipate Your Mind podcast. I'm your host, certified religious transition and trauma recovery coach, Teri Hales. I help people step out of the shadows of religious fear and shame and embrace their authentic selves with love and empathy. If you're ready to throw off the shackles of learned binary thinking and explore a more nuanced approach to life, this is your playground. Teri Hales 0:52 Welcome back to the Emancipate Your Mind podcast. Oh, y'all. Last week, we talked about narcissistic personality disorder as sort of a doorway into a whole host of topics that I'm really wanting to cover with you that I'm learning about myself and that I'm getting so much enlightenment from and I can't wait to share those things with you. And I told you that this week, we would cover codependency, which is usually the other half to a narcissistic relationship. Teri Hales 1:25 So, usually, you have a narcissist and then you have a codependent. So, the narcissist acts as the dominant or controlling aspect of the relationship, and a codependent, they act as the giver, or the person that is feeding the narcissistic personality disorder. Teri Hales 1:44 Now, codependents don't just go with narcissists. They can go with borderline personality disorder. They can go with people who are addicted to substances or to habits. They can be the other half in a relationship with someone who's emotionally abusive or emotionally absent. Teri Hales 2:07 A codependent can also be in a relationship with another codependent, where one codependent is giving all of themself to one person and, in return, the other person is expected to give all of themself to the other codependent. So, depending on many circumstances, codependency can come up in lots of different circumstances. Teri Hales 2:32 But I'm actually going to throw a curveball at you guys. Today, we are not actually going to talk about what a codependent is, or how a codependent forms. We will talk about that in a later episode. But this week has been an incredible week of conversations with you, the listeners. I had so many people say, "I didn't realize that I think I have a narcissist in my life. I've been in a relationship where I feel like I'm giving and giving and giving all of the time." Teri Hales 3:05 And I love that so many of you said, "I don't know if this is a person that would be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder or if this is a person that just has a ton of narcissistic traits, but, either way, I feel like they take and take and take, and I give and give and give and my needs don't get met. And I'm often frustrated. And I feel like I'm not enough. Or I feel like I'm always wrong. Or I feel like I'm the person who gets blamed for everything that goes wrong in the relationship." Teri Hales 3:36 I've had people talk about being the scapegoat in their families. There have been so many amazing but very painful conversations about going from being the golden child to being the scapegoat or the black sheep. And just the trauma that that creates, the trauma of being shunned from a family or cut out because you no longer buy into the family system, or you no longer people-please in order to get your needs met. Teri Hales 4:10 And so this is a huge topic. And, over and over again, I heard people say, "How do I deal with this? How do I begin to make a healthier space for myself when my father is a narcissist, or my mother is, or my significant others or my adult child, or my best friend, or my coworker, or the people that I relate with at church?" Teri Hales 4:36 So many good conversations. I just want to tell you how much I appreciate those. Anytime we converse, anytime you tell me what comes up for you in an episode, it influences where I take my research. It makes me think more. It makes me reflect on not only my own experiences, but includes a broader scope of what's going on with not only myself and my clients, but you as well. And every time you share, every time you start a conversation with me, it allows me to tailor this podcast specifically to the needs of you, who are listening. Teri Hales 5:15 So today we're going to take a little bit of a turn, and we're going to talk about setting boundaries with a narcissist. Now, I've already done a podcast all about what boundaries are and how they serve us in healthy relationships, but I really wanted to do a podcast on setting boundaries with narcissists in particular, because there's often no boundaries for the person in a relationship with a narcissist. And we can often end up feeling frustrated, confused, rejected, unsafe. And so I really want to address that today. Teri Hales 5:52 And we're going to talk about some of the specific challenges that might come up for the narcissist when we set boundaries, and some of the ways they might receive that, some of the things to be aware of, and how we can handle those items. And we're going to talk about some of the specific pitfalls we might run into as people in relationships with narcissists, as codependents or recovering codependents, and how we can work through those issues as well. Teri Hales 6:22 So buckle up, there's a lot of information here. And I'm really excited to dig into this. So thank you so much for all of you who said this is what you wanted help with, you wanted to know how to create a healthier space for yourself. Teri Hales 6:36 Now, before we get into this topic, I want you to know that you may have feelings come up. As I'm reading more and researching more about narcissism and codependency, I'm having wounds uncovered that I didn't realize were there. Or I'm having to confront wounds in a different context. And I'm doing my own growth work as well. Teri Hales 7:04 I think I mentioned on social media that I've been feeling a little off. And I think that's what's going on, is I'm confronting the next stage of growth, the next layer of healing. And I don't ever want to show up in a way that's inauthentic, I never want you to believe that I have everything figured out when I don't. And I never want to speak from a place that doesn't feel grounded. And so, for the past several weeks, I haven't been speaking much on social media, simply because I am in a place of uncertainty. I'm in a place of growth. I'm in a place where the old is dying away but the new hasn't quite established itself. Teri Hales 7:48 So I feel like I'm getting a little bit closer to where I want to be. But I'm not there yet. I'm not rooted. I am in what I call "the cosmic soup". And that is beautiful. The lovely thing is, is I've done this enough times that I know that this is just part of the process. There's nothing wrong with this, this is just how it feels when we're burning off old shadows, when we're confronting them, and healing them, and acknowledging them, and loving them, and doing everything we can to support them and help them feel safe, and building the new. Teri Hales 8:26 This is just what it feels like, it feels a little shifty and ungrounded, it feels a little off. And so if, while we're going through this material, you feel that way, or if you feel triggered—triggered can feel angry, or resentful, or frustrated—and you might feel that towards me, because I'm the person speaking and I'm the person talking about these things. And that gets to be okay. This is a safe place for you to be frustrated and angry with me. That is okay. Teri Hales 8:58 So allow yourself to feel that. There's nothing wrong with that. Allow yourself to explore it, and get curious with it, and make a safe space for it, and allow it to speak and tell you what it's trying to tell you. Teri Hales 9:12 You might feel those same feelings towards a family member or an organization that has these characteristics or these traits. You might feel grief, because you've never experienced healthy boundaries. You've never had a solid sense of self. All of that is welcome here. Teri Hales 9:33 The more we can open our arms and embrace these big, sometimes-scary feelings, understand that they're here to help us and guide us and to speak with us about what's going on inside of us, and the more safety and curiosity we can create with those feelings, the more we're going to create safety, curiosity, and compassion with ourselves. Teri Hales 10:00 Because those feelings represent parts of us, okay? Those feelings represent different pieces of our identity, and different pieces of our past, different pieces of what we've experienced. We are not the feelings, but the feelings speak for different pieces of us. And, as we'll listen to them and create safe spaces for them, we're actually creating compassionate and safe spaces for us to exist in with ourselves. Teri Hales 10:29 It's mind-blowing, it might not make a ton of sense, and that's okay. But understand that, the safer we become with feeling, the safer we become with ourselves, and the more we build that relationship of self-acceptance, and eventually self-love. Teri Hales 10:47 Before we get into boundaries, I want us to understand that many of us have spent our lives trying to reform, connect with or even control, the narcissist in our lives through either people-pleasing and perfecting and overachieving to try to gain favor or withdrawing to try to avoid abuse. Teri Hales 11:10 Now, whenever we get into people-pleasing and perfecting, and performing, usually, we have very loose or non-existent boundaries, especially with people-pleasing. And it can be a struggle to keep people out. Teri Hales 11:28 Now, if we think about boundaries as sort of a bubble that's around us, boundaries are where I begin and end. It's what creates a sense of who I am as a person, it separates me from any other person on the planet. And it allows me to self-regulate, it allows me to decide what's healthy for me and what's not healthy for me. And it also allows me to decide what problems are mine to solve, and what problems really aren't mine to solve. Teri Hales 12:00 When we've been conditioned to people-please, or to perfect, or to perform in order to get validation from others, we often don't have those boundaries and people can just kind of come into our bubble whenever they want. And, often, they take whatever they want to take. And, over time, it can begin to chip away at our sense of self-worth and our sense of self-trust. Because no one's there to protect us. We're not there. Teri Hales 12:29 Now, the opposite side of the coin, whenever we get into withdrawing in order to avoid abuse, we often have very rigid and non-flexible boundaries, but we struggle with letting people in. Teri Hales 12:42 Now we're not going to talk about withdrawn attachment styles today, but just know that that can also be a piece of growing up with someone with emotionally or psychologically abusive tendencies or with addiction, or with narcissism, or borderline personality disorder. Teri Hales 12:59 So, if I'm talking about narcissism, and you're like, "I identify someone in my life, or several someones in my life that fit that description," but you don't find yourself people-pleasing or perfecting or achieving in order to get their love attention, acceptance, or validation, if you find that you have just completely cut ties emotionally and withdrawn, even from the time that you were a little kid, we are going to be talking about attachment styles later this year. So just know that that is coming. There is a wealth of information coming, and it all ties together, which is why we kicked off this year with a bang talking about narcissism. Teri Hales 13:42 So, if you're a person with an anxious attachment—which is what typically creates codependency (it's that people-pleasing, perfecting, and achieving in order to try to get our caregivers or our partners in life to love us and accept us and validate us) and we often give and put their needs ahead of ours, and pretend like we don't have needs or feelings, even, in order to get those needs met—then this episode is for you. Teri Hales 14:16 Now, the first thing I want to say—and this is going to be a hard pill to swallow—is we can't reform the narcissist. People with narcissistic personality disorder rarely change and those that do change—because it is possible! It's just that the disorder is such that it keeps them from actually self-reflecting, and it keeps them from identifying these traits within themselves. Just the way they protect themselves keeps them from looking and asking, "Am I part of the problem? Is there something I'm doing that's driving people away?" Teri Hales 14:52 So narcissistic personality disorder is something that people can heal from. However, they often don't, because they don't self-reflect. And if they do go seek help, if they do go find therapy in order to heal, it is because they are motivated to get more of what they want. So it's still going to be self-focused when they go to get help, and when they go to heal. They are not going to change, for you or for anyone else, no matter how many times you talk to them, no matter how many times you try to explain your side of the story. Teri Hales 15:31 People with narcissistic personality disorder or a large quantity of narcissistic traits are self-protecting so hard, they can't hear you. They can't hear your emotions, they can't focus on what it's like to be you. Teri Hales 15:48 So we can't reform the narcissist. So, for those of us who are codependent, who feel like it's our job to save them, to make them happy, to make them like us or love us, I want you to clip that string right now. Like, just close your eyes, and imagine yourself taking a pair of scissors and looking at the string that connects you to them, the string that says, "I have to save you". The string that says, "I have to please you." The string that says, "I have to fix you." Teri Hales 16:23 ...And I want you to clip it. Cut the string mentally in your mind. Teri Hales 16:31 You cannot fix a narcissist. You cannot reform the narcissist. And, if we're being honest, you can't change anyone—narcissistic or not—you can't fix or save or change anyone but yourself. The only power you have is in your own life. So clip that tie. Remind yourself, "That is not my responsibility. I can't change the narcissist. I can't change anyone but myself." Teri Hales 17:07 So second, we can't make anyone connect with us. We can't make a narcissist connect with us, no matter how perfect, how well behaved, or how useful we are. As long as their protective devices make them unable to empathize with those around them, there can be no safe spaces in which to connect. Teri Hales 17:29 It's not that you're not trying hard enough. It's not that you're not perfect enough. It's not that you're not good enough. They're incapable of connecting with you. And it has nothing to do with you. So nothing you do is going to make them finally connect. This is especially hard when this is our parent or our partner. Teri Hales 17:53 No matter what has happened in our life, there is a longing inside of us to have a mom who loves us, a dad who loves us, and a life partner who loves us. And when those relationships are with someone who has many narcissistic traits, or narcissistic personality disorder, we can feel like we're just not doing it right. And that's not the case. They're just not capable, with their protective mechanisms, to connect with you in safe spaces. Because the only way they feel safe is when they're in control. They only feel safe, whenever they're superior. They only feel safe when they've got that mask on. Teri Hales 18:41 And, going back to a podcast we had last year with my husband, Kevin, we cannot create intimacy when we have our masks on. We can't get close. He said it's like trying to cuddle with someone with armor on. You can't get close, you can't get that skin-to-skin contact, you can't get that connection. Teri Hales 19:01 So I want you to close your eyes again and imagine yourself clipping that string, that it's your responsibility to connect or that somehow could be perfect enough or whatever enough, to make that connection happen. That's not your job. That's not gonna happen, at least under the present circumstances. Teri Hales 19:27 And third, we can't control their behavior, or anyone else's behavior. We kind of talked about this with the first one. We can only protect and empower ourselves with boundaries for our safety, our sanity, and our self respect. The only person we can change is us, and we have full power to keep ourselves safe, to keep ourselves sane and to develop a sense of self-respect or self-validation, self-acceptance and self-trust. Teri Hales 20:04 All those goodies we're trying to get our partner to give us, or our parent to give us, we are capable of giving ourselves. And when we learn to give those things to ourselves, then we're not reliant on others. Their behavior gets to be their behavior and we take care of us. We get to clip all those strings and detach ourselves from the abuse so that we can live happy, healthy, sane lives. Teri Hales 20:36 Alright, now that we've covered that, I want us to go ahead and we're going to dig into how to set boundaries with a narcissist. This is going to be a little bit different than setting boundaries with someone who has a healthy attachment, somebody who is empathic, and compassionate, and kind, and connects like we would normally expect a person to connect. Teri Hales 21:01 This is going to be a little different, and there may be things in here that will feel very hard, or even rude or mean, but just remind yourself, whenever those triggers come up, acknowledge them. Write them down, if you want, so that you can revisit them later. Those triggers are telling you about your personal beliefs. And you may have picked up some of those beliefs, because you were in a dysfunctional household, whether it was your household as a child, or your household in a relationship. Teri Hales 21:32 But really pay attention to those triggers, because they're pointing you in the direction of subconscious beliefs that you're holding. And when we can become aware of those things, it allows us to begin to have the power to change those underlying beliefs. Teri Hales 21:48 So your triggers are welcome as we go through this list. And just notice, when you hear me say something, and you think to yourself, "Oh, that's rude, I couldn't do that," or, "That's too hard," or, "I'm not that person," allow that to be, write it down, and then get curious with it later. And ask yourself, "Why is it rude? Why is it not me? Why can't I see myself doing this?" As we question those things, it's going to bring up those limiting beliefs. And it's going to give us more power in our lives to make decisions that are fulfilling for us in our lives and give us the maximum amount of sanity, safety and happiness. Teri Hales 22:31 Alright, first one, you ready for this? Stop explaining, justifying, and defending yourself. The narcissist doesn't care about your feelings, your thoughts, your reasons, or your excuses. They only care about the information that serves them. Teri Hales 22:51 They aren't going to like your boundaries, because it diminishes their control in your life and thus, their ability to get supply from you. (And remember, supply is a sense of validation, a sense of control, a sense of status.) They are looking for the supply of adoration, validation, and status, and your boundaries fly in the face of that, okay? Teri Hales 23:17 So they're going to be listening for justifying, excuses, and defending so that they can turn it on you in scrutiny, manipulation, or intimidation to cause you to doubt yourself, and to loosen your boundaries again so they can go back to being in control. Teri Hales 23:33 So, no explanations, no justifying, no defending yourself. Teri Hales 23:39 One of the things someone told me that I loved when I first left high demand religion is someone said, "You can say, 'No, thank you.' And that's a complete sentence." You don't have to explain. You don't have to justify. You don't have to give your reasons or defend yourself. You can just say, "No, thank you." Teri Hales 23:58 So, if missionaries wanted to come into my house and share a message, I could say, "No, thank you." If someone asked me if I wanted to come to church, I could say, "No, thank you." If someone asked if they could come over and visit teach me or check up on me, I could say, "No, thank you." Teri Hales 24:12 Visiting teaching, by the way, is the sort of monitoring system where members are assigned to their members and they go and check up on them once a month. It's called something different now. I think it's called ministering or something like that. But it's basically an assigned friend that comes to your house and checks up on you. Teri Hales 24:29 We definitely had people that wanted to check up on us after we left and it was just nice to be able to say, "No, thank you." Do you want to spend your Saturday morning cleaning the church? "No, thanks." Teri Hales 24:39 You can do that as well with the individual narcissist in your life. You can just say, "No, thank you." No explanation, no justification, no explaining needed. You can set a boundary about what's okay with you and what's not okay with you with no explanation or backstory needed. Teri Hales 24:56 Now, we're dealing with a narcissist here. They're gonna push back, right? Because your boundaries don't feel good. It makes them feel like they're losing control and losing access to the supply that you give them. So if they criticize you, you can use a very straightforward phrase, like, "Thanks for your input." Or, "I'll consider that." Teri Hales 25:19 Remember, emotion feeds them, so getting angry or frustrated or responding. So very matter-of-factly: "Thank you for your input", or, "I'll consider that," and then just move forward. You don't have to justify yourself or defend yourself. Teri Hales 25:36 Or, let's say they question your actions. You can say, "You know, I'm confident in my choice," or something similar. "I've thought this over, I really like my choice." No explanation, no vulnerable backstory that can be used against you, just, "I've thought about this long and hard, and I'm really confident with my decision." Teri Hales 25:59 Or if they demand an explanation, you can just say something like, "That's personal," or, "I don't want to talk about that right now." It's okay for you to just say, "This is how it's gonna be." It's okay for you to give very short, concise, and confident answers that don't give much up. Teri Hales 26:19 This is something I want you to know, is vulnerability is a wonderful thing for healthy relationships. But Brene Brown says vulnerability is something that you share with people who have earned the right to hear your story. Teri Hales 26:36 If someone often uses things against you, if they often use the details of your life to manipulate or control you, they have not earned the right for you to be vulnerable with them. It is okay for you to have your armor on to protect yourself. Teri Hales 26:53 Because your job is to protect you. Your job is to keep you safe. Your job is to make the changes that will help you feel healthy. So if there are people that use your vulnerability against you, they don't get to hear your vulnerable stories. They don't get to hear about your struggle. They don't get to hear about your lack of confidence or the feelings of being an imposter. They don't get to hear that people earn the right they build the trust to hear your vulnerability. Teri Hales 27:27 And remember, intimacy cannot be built when people are using things against you. It's nothing you're doing wrong. Maya Angelou said, "When people show you who they are, believe them the first time." Teri Hales 27:39 Now, for many of us, we haven't just given the narcissist one time, they've had 20 years of times or longer to show us that they're trustworthy. Believe them. Believe their past actions. And when I say, "believe them," I mean, are they trustworthy most of the time? Because all of us make mistakes. But narcissists are so good at intermittent rewards, right? Being the person, you want them to be intermittently mixed in with a bunch of criticism, and manipulation, and emotional withdrawal, right? Teri Hales 28:16 So look at your relationship, the majority of the time, are they there for you? Do they hold your vulnerability as the precious thing that is? This gift that you're giving them? If the answer is no, they haven't earned the right for you to be vulnerable with them. Keep that in mind. Stop explaining, justifying, or defending yourself. Just don't do it because it'll be used against you. Teri Hales 28:43 The second ingredient to setting boundaries with a narcissist is leave when it doesn't feel healthy. You don't need anyone's permission to exit a destructive interaction. You—not others—get to determine what is healthy for you. Teri Hales 29:02 The narcissist does not get to tell you what is healthy for you. You get to decide. The Church doesn't get to decide what is healthy for you. You get to decide If you were taught to believe in a narcissistic God, narcissistic, God doesn't get to choose what is healthy for you. You get to decide you are the only person that gets to decide what is healthy for you. Teri Hales 29:29 Now there's three different ways I love to get out of unhealthy conversations and to leave when it quits being a healthy interaction for me. One of them is to have an out phrase, you can say something like, "Oh my gosh, look at the time! I'm sorry, I'm late. I've got to go," and leave. Teri Hales 29:49 Remember: no explaining, justifying, or defending yourself. Just really concise: "Oh my gosh, it's late. I gotta go." You can use that phrase anytime things are getting unhealthy. Or, if you don't like that phrase, choose a phrase that feels better, like, "I've been away from home for a long time, I get to go check on my kid," or, "I have someplace else I've got to be. I'll see you later." And literally just cut. Just be like, "Bye!" and go. Teri Hales 30:18 The second way is, if you're going to be having a conversation, or you're going to the house of somebody who's a narcissist, you can decide how long you're willing to give them. Teri Hales 30:30 So let's say it's the holidays. We just did the holidays, right? Some of us went home to narcissistic family members' houses. You get to decide how long you're willing to spend there, or how long they're able to spend at your house, if they're coming to see you. Teri Hales 30:45 You can decide, "I'm coming for two hours of dinner. And then I'm leaving." Or you may decide you're coming over for 15 minutes to say hello, hug everyone, see everyone, and go before the dinner happens. That gets to be a choice as well. Teri Hales 31:00 Not going also gets to be a choice. So just know, listen to yourself. What amount of time would feel comfortable for you? Set your timer for that amount of time, and, when the timer goes off, just simply say, "I have another place I need to be. And it was great to see you." Hugs, kisses (or, if it's not that kind of a relationship, "Thanks so much for your time."), and off you go. Teri Hales 31:28 And the third way that you can remove yourself from unhealthy places is to be direct. You can call out bullying when you see it. The narcissist knows when they're being a bully. They know when they're hurting you. So it's not like this is going to come as a surprise to them. They might act like it's a surprise, but they have a conscience. They just don't have empathy. Teri Hales 31:49 So you can say things like, "I'm going to excuse myself. I'd be more than happy to talk when you feel like you're ready for a constructive conversation," and leave. Again, no explaining, no justifying, no defending yourself. Just, "I'm going to go now, I would love to talk about this again at a later time, when you feel like you can handle a constructive conversation." Teri Hales 32:13 Pay attention to those triggers. I know some triggers have come up at this point. I know there are some things that you're like, "[gasp!] I could never do that!" Or, "How would I even go about that? How would they react? Can you imagine? That's crazy!" Teri Hales 32:28 Write all those things down, make safe space for all those feelings and all those messages. Those are all parts of you that are giving you information. They're all welcome here. And if I've said something that is completely angered you, that is welcome here too. Teri Hales 32:46 Alright, the next ingredient for setting boundaries with a narcissist is we need to decide what we will tolerate and what we will not tolerate. In order to do this, so many of us don't know what we want or what we need. Or, if we do, we don't know how to communicate it. Teri Hales 33:08 So if you don't know what you want or need, listen to your emotions. Emotions, like anger, resentment, and frustration are telling you what's not okay with you. They're telling you when someone has crossed your boundary, or when you've crossed your own boundary, okay? Teri Hales 33:26 So if you're saying yes to everything, nobody's crossed your boundary. If someone comes to you and says, "Hey, will you make 12 dozen cookies by tomorrow?" No one's crossed my boundary by asking me if that's something I'm willing to do. Teri Hales 33:41 I cross my boundary when I say yes to something that I don't have the time, energy, space, or mental capacity for. I crossed my boundary. And I'll feel resentful, and I might blame the other person, but I'm the person that said yes. Teri Hales 34:00 Asking someone if they have capacity to do something, or if they're willing to do something, is not crossing your boundary. Bulldozing through something? That's different. But asking, that is not crossing your boundary. Teri Hales 34:13 Unless you've specifically said, "Please don't ask me to make cookies ever again." If I had told somebody, "Please don't ask me to make cookies for Scouts ever again," and then somebody came up and said, "Will you make 12 dozen cookies for Scouts?" Then, at that point, we can talk about people crossing your boundary. Teri Hales 34:30 But, in general, when someone asks you to do something, it's typically not crossing your boundary. But if we say yes to that thing, and we don't have capacity for it, we're crossing our own boundary, okay? Teri Hales 34:44 So, listen to those emotions: anger, resentment, frustration...those emotions are so good at telling us where we or other people have crossed our boundaries. And, if we'll give space to them to talk, if we'll get curious with them, if we'll welcome them, they'll tell us exactly what happened, why it was a problem, and what we should do about it. Teri Hales 35:09 All of that information is buried in that emotion. (It's actually buried in your subconscious and your subconscious sends you a chemical called an emotion.) But, when you will notice that emotion, you can trace it back to those subconscious thoughts that will tell you everything you need to know to create healthy spaces for yourself. Teri Hales 35:29 Emotions, like safety, happiness, contentment, or peace? Those are telling you what feels good, that tells you what's okay with you. So if you notice, "You know, when people are joking with me, and we're having a good-natured laugh, I love that! That feels really good! But when someone is using half-truths in a sarcastic way in order to put me down, I don't like that," you've just figured out a boundary for yourself. Teri Hales 35:56 "I love good-natured humor, where no one is a target, and no one's passive-aggressively being put down. Love that. I don't like passive aggression disguised as humor or sarcasm." And you can set that boundary: "I'm more than happy to joke with you in a good-natured way. But, if you have something you need to discuss with me, please don't tear me down sarcastically or poke at things that are half-truths about me in a sarcastic way. That feels like bullying to me." Teri Hales 36:26 Another question I like to ask myself when I'm trying to figure out what I will tolerate. And what I won't tolerate is, "What do I need to feel safe in this relationship?" Teri Hales 36:37 Now, this is a great place to use your negativity bias, because you probably have a list of things. Because our brains focus on the negative, you probably have a list of things you don't like, or that make you feel unsafe. Write those down, and then try to figure out, "What would I need instead of these things to feel safe?" Teri Hales 37:00 So, remember, we want to focus on what we want so that we can communicate that to other people: "I want blah-blah-blah; I don't want blah-blah-blah," so that we can get super, super clear with people. Teri Hales 37:14 It's kind of like when we're dealing with toddlers, right? If we just say, "Don't run into the street," what are our kids gonna do? They're gonna run into the street. But if we say, "You can't run into the street, but you can run up and down the sidewalk," or, "You can run all over this grass," it gives them something constructive to do. They know what to do instead, instead of just focusing on what you don't want them to do. Teri Hales 37:38 So creating boundaries, it's really helpful not just to know what you don't want, or what's making you feel unsafe, but what you would want instead. Because that helps your brain start engaging and building more of those things and being able to communicate those things to the people who are important to you in your life. Teri Hales 37:58 Alright, the fourth ingredient to setting boundaries with the narcissist is decide what the consequence will be. Part of setting boundaries is knowing what you are prepared to do if your boundaries are ignored. Teri Hales 38:10 So often, we use boundaries as a way to manipulate and control others. But that is not what boundaries are about. Boundaries are about what we will do to keep ourselves safe. Teri Hales 38:22 We communicate those to other people as an invitation to get close with us. We say, "This is what I need in order to feel safe and to have an intimate relationship with people." And they get to decide, "Yes, that's something I want to do, because I want to be close and intimate with you," or, "No, that's not something I want to do." Teri Hales 38:42 Both gets to be okay for them. But you get to decide, "Okay, that person is willing to accept my boundaries and honor them, and so I will open up and allow them to be close with me." And people who cannot respect our boundaries, or purposely try to bulldoze them: "That's not somebody I can be intimate with, and this is what I'm going to do to keep myself safe." Teri Hales 39:08 Before we communicate those boundaries, know what the consequence will be and what you're prepared to do to keep yourself safe. Consequences were best if they're clear in your mind ahead of time. Teri Hales 39:20 So, if you are headed to your parents house, for instance, and there is a chance that a boundary is going to be crossed, let's say there's a specific boundary that often gets crossed. One that's coming to mind to me right now, just top of mind, is single people often go home and all their relatives ask them if they're dating, or if they're going to get married anytime soon, or they'll make those passive-aggressive jokes about them being spinsters or things like that. Teri Hales 39:49 You can, ahead of time, say, "When I come home, I don't want anyone to ask me about my relationship status or whether I'm dating and I don't want anyone to make jokes about the fact that I'm single. There's a lot of things we can talk about, like my job, or my doctoral dissertation, or the trip I just took to France, or my friends and how they're doing. I would be more than happy to discuss any of those things with you, but I'm not willing to discuss my relationship status. If people bring up my relationship status, I will promptly disengage from the conversation and leave the room." Teri Hales 40:27 That was a very clear boundary. It told the person what was okay and what was not okay, and what would happen if that boundary was crossed. Teri Hales 40:37 Now, here's the important part: when a boundary is violated (And I say "when" because we're talking about a narcissist here. When you set a boundary, so often, it's like a challenge. And they will try to push or cross the boundary to see what they can get away with, to see if you're really serious, and to see if they can gain back control over this part of you.) So, WHEN the boundary is crossed, you need to act on your chosen consequence immediately, decisively, and you got to do it every single time. Teri Hales 41:09 It's like a toddler: if there's a consequence, when they do something naughty one time, but not the next time, if it's really intermittent, they don't know what to expect. And so they're more likely to keep pushing that boundary. But, if it's the same consequence, every single time, eventually the behavior stops. Same here. If you will be decisive and follow through with your consequence, every single time, you're going to build some serious credibility. Teri Hales 41:37 So number five. We just talked about this a little bit, but, once you know what you're okay with, and what you're not okay with, and you're really clear about that, and you know the consequence attached to that boundary, then you want to communicate your boundaries clearly and concisely. And, remember, no explaining, no justification, no excuses, just very clear and concise. Teri Hales 42:02 When I'm communicating with a narcissist in my life, I like to be as matter-of-fact and non-emotional about this part as possible. I practice in front of my mirror until I'm comfortable saying it and I don't stumble over my words. I don't want to waffle at all. I want to be able to say, "This is what I'm okay with. This is what I'm not okay with. If this boundary is crossed, this is what I'm going to do." That's it. Teri Hales 42:30 So here's an example, you might say something like, "I don't feel safe when you call me names. If you call me names, I will end the conversation until you're willing to treat me with respect." Now, what is the narcissist going to do? Likely, at some point, they're going to call you a name, right? Maybe shortly after telling them your boundary, they're gonna call you a name. Teri Hales 42:52 You're gonna act matter-of-factly. So, you communicate your boundary very matter-of-factly, without any fluff. Then, when the name calling continues, you act matter-of-factly. Teri Hales 43:04 Because anytime you blow up in anger, or get really flustered, or you get frustrated, or you get into blaming, or you get into your cycle, that is supply for them. That tells them they're in control. You've just fed them. We're trying not to feed them anymore, we're cutting off the nutrition to this toxic relationship. Teri Hales 43:26 So, what you do is, when they call you names, again, you state something like this, very matter-of-factly: "As I told you, when you call me names, I will leave our conversation. Goodbye." And then you hang up the phone, or you literally pick up your purse, or your jacket, or whatever you brought with you, and you leave the house. Teri Hales 43:47 You go. You don't wait for a response from them. You don't wait for an acknowledgement that they heard you. You don't engage, no matter what they do or say. (Because you know, they're going to do and say a lot, right? To try to engage you, to try to get that supply.) Teri Hales 43:55 No, no, no. We don't engage. We simply state, "Remember, this was the boundary, and this is what I said, I'm gonna do? Goodbye," and we go. The more quickly and decisively react, the better. Teri Hales 44:15 And then, number six: expect pushback and prepare for it. Narcissists like to be in control as a way to help themselves feel secure. You setting boundaries, particularly at the beginning of when you try to start setting boundaries, that's gonna feel like a loss of control and a loss of stability for them. Teri Hales 44:35 So they may cycle through their repertoire to regain control and have you start second-guessing yourself. They may argue, they might blame, they might minimize your feelings, they might act like the victim, they might say you're too sensitive, or they might become rageful, they might say or do really mean or hurtful things. Teri Hales 44:55 And, while these tactics might be unpleasant to endure, your boundaries are not up for discussion. Remember: you—not others—decide what is healthy for you. Not up for discussion. Teri Hales 45:07 Expect that there's going to be pushback. Have an exit plan for yourself, have a safety plan for yourself, know what the consequences are, and carry through swiftly. Teri Hales 45:18 Alright, so I know a lot of that was triggering. I know a lot of that pushes against everything, every pattern that you've learned as a codependent. Most of your life, you've likely been tiptoeing around a narcissist, trying to please them, and get them to like you or love you, get them to quit criticizing you, get them to just be nice to you, right? That hasn't worked. Because it's kept them in control of your life. It's time for you to take back control of your life. Teri Hales 45:50 Now, if some of you are listening to this, and you're thinking, "I really want to do this, but I'm afraid that I won't be safe trying to set boundaries with a narcissist in my life," or, "I'm afraid that I will be abandoned and I don't know how I'll take care of myself if I'm abandoned," whether that's a parent or a partner, something that I want you to know is that your safety is paramount. Teri Hales 46:17 So if you've been listening to this and thinking, "I would love to do this, but I'm afraid that I'll be unsafe," safety comes first. So first, have a plan in place to keep you safe. Teri Hales 46:29 If that means you need to have a conversation with a narcissist in your life and you need to bring a support person with you to be present and be a witness when you're having a conversation, that's allowed. You get to do that. Teri Hales 46:44 If it means you would feel safer having a conversation over the phone, you can do that. If it means you need to write a letter, or an email, you can do that, as well. Do what keeps us safe, make sure that you are safe first. That's the most important thing. Teri Hales 47:03 Sit down with yourself, or a trusted other person, and create a plan for your safety. Because I know that that can sometimes be a very real threat in our lives. If you're in, you know, a divorce situation, or if you're in a situation where child custody might be coming into play, make sure you always have a witness. Someone that can talk about what actually happened and what didn't actually happen. Teri Hales 47:03 So be thinking about what you need to feel safe and make sure you have those parameters in place. Make sure you have a mediator, if you need one, or the distance that you need so that you're not in danger of being abused. So, before you put any of these things into place, make sure you're safe. Teri Hales 47:48 And, if you've been listening to today's episode and you've been thinking, "I don't even know where to begin to start to have the courage to have these kinds of conversations," or, "This feels so foreign to me," please stay tuned. Teri Hales 48:03 We're going to be talking about codependency even deeper, helping us understand how we develop these patterns, and why we develop these patterns, and how they've protected us up to this point, and then how we can begin to dismantle them if they're no longer serving us. Teri Hales 48:19 Because our codependent patterns, like all patterns in our life, were put in place when we were younger to protect us, and to make sure that our needs were met, and that we survived. And they did a good job. They got our needs met, we survived to adulthood. But if it's no longer serving you, you now, as an adult, get to reparent yourself and recreate new patterns in your life that will serve you better and give you more freedom, and more safety, and more ability to live a life that feels healthy for you. Teri Hales 48:50 I look forward to having these conversations. And please, like I said at the beginning of this podcast, reach out if there's something that really struck you or triggered you or something that you want to discuss. I live for that! I love talking with you and having these kinds of discussions because it sparks new understanding, new questions. Teri Hales 49:12 Everything on this podcast comes from the questions that I ask myself as I talk with you and as I experience my own deconstruction and my own healing. So, if you have questions, ask them! Let's discuss, let's spark more questions, let's figure out where the gaps are. And, together, we're going to come up with some really great ideas for podcasts that need to be broadcast later on. Teri Hales 49:35 It's going to give me ideas for where to take the research and what, maybe, I don't understand well enough yet. We all learn faster together. I love collaborating with you. So please reach out and please start conversations. Teri Hales 49:50 I'm over on Instagram, @EmancipatedMolly. I'm on Twitter, @EmancipatedTeri. You can have conversations with me on the Facebook page at Emancipate Yourself—so there's a Facebook page you can ask to join, and it's called Emancipate Yourself—you can post questions there, and start a discussion with the community, you can private message me there. There's so many different options. Teri Hales 50:14 I look forward to hearing from you, learning with you, and I'm so grateful to be on this path with you. I'm learning so much and it's so exciting to me. Right now, I feel like all of this information that we are digesting together is something that I need. It's an understanding that, maybe, I didn't have before. Teri Hales 50:36 I'm beginning to understand new levels of what happened to us In high demand religion, what happened in my family, what happened to me as a child. And, the more understanding I have for where I came from, the more compassion I have for my present self, and the more freedom and ability I have to expand into my favorite self in the future, the self that I want to become and to enjoy the things that I want to enjoy. Teri Hales 51:06 I feel so grateful for the ways that you have helped me become aware of those things. And I look forward to continuing that journey with you over the upcoming weeks. Thank you again for tuning in. And I will see you again next Sunday.