Teri Hales  0:15  
Welcome to the Emancipate Your Mind podcast. I'm your host, certified religious transition and trauma recovery coach, Teri Hales, I help people step out of the shadows of religious fear and shame, and embrace their authentic selves with love and empathy. If you're ready to throw off the shackles of learned binary thinking, and explore a more nuanced approach to life, this is your playground.

Hello, and welcome back to the Emancipate Your Mind podcast. It is episode two of 2022. And I have to tell you, already this year has a completely different energy in the podcast than last year did. Last year, I felt like I had the whole year planned out and I was kind of guiding and molding where it's going. And this year feels more like an adventure, more like an unfolding. And I can already tell it's going to be a little bit more unpredictable. And I'm giving myself permission to just flow with that, to allow my interest and my curiosity to take me where it will and then to bring you podcasts from that, from what I'm learning. 

Because, honestly, when it comes to religious trauma, we are all learning. There are no experts. I'm not an expert, there is no one in this field that is an expert. We're all discovering, and we're all learning together. And so I'm going to bring you on that journey with me this year. 

For the past several months, I've been really, really interested in narcissism and narcissistic abuse. And maybe that feels a little weird and a little heavy for a second episode of the year. But, honestly, it is one of the biggest issues my one-to-one clients have been facing. I find that so many people who are deconstructing religious harmmand religious indoctrination, so often, have also experienced narcissistic abuse, or codependency. And these are topics that I really want to understand better. And I want to see how they weave into high demand religion and how they weave into our sense of self and our ability to feel secure with ourselves and our ability to heal and grow and thrive and to create beautiful lives, free of generational trauma. 

I'm finding that high demand religion has a very high correlation with narcissism and with codependency. I would say the majority of my clients experience codependent family relationships or narcissistic, codependent relationships, or they experience narcissistic abuse from religious leaders, or from other people that they're close with. 

And, as I've begun to really dig into what is narcissism? What is narcissistic personality disorder? What is codependency? I am having so many lightbulb moments that I want to share with you. And they're giving me so much understanding about what we're all experiencing. Now, something that's also coming up is, the more I understand narcissism, the more I'm understanding cult culture. And there is some sort of correlation and tie here, and I want to have these discussions. But, before we can do all of that, before we can start pulling out all of these topics that are related to religious harm and high demand religion, we need to understand what narcissism is. Because, honestly, our society misuses that term so often. 

And so today's episode is simply an exploration of what narcissism is and how you can begin to identify it. A lot of times we use narcissism as this sort of vague idea that someone is vain, or self-centered, or maybe just isn't emotionally available, or arrogant. And that isn't what narcissism is. In fact, all of us have narcissistic traits. 

But we're going to talk about people with narcissistic personality disorder. We're going to talk about malignant narcissism. We're going to talk about what happens when a person becomes a narcissist as a protection for a childhood wound and how that can become abusive to everyone else in their life. We're also going to talk about how organizations created by these people and perpetuated by people with narcissistic personality disorder can create generations of trauma. 

And, unfortunately, as I've been doing my research, very often, religion has a tendency to—I don't know if it attracts narcissists, or if it's just a really good hiding place for narcissism—but we're gonna just kind of dig in, I would love your feedback over on the Facebook page, the Emancipate Yourself Facebook page, please go join it, if you haven't already. I haven't been super active over there for the past two weeks, because I've been crazy sick. 

Last episode that I recorded for you, I recorded in five-minute segments between coughing and hacking. And I had to put my face over a steaming bowl of water to kind of clear my airways so I could record a little bit more. So that's why I haven't been super active over on the Facebook page. I've been sleeping and recovering and, honestly, reading a bunch of books and doing research and listening to podcasts and just doing all the things. But I've been resting a lot and not using my voice and allowing things to just heal. 

But I have big plans this year over on the Facebook page. And I really want to dig in and have discussions about your experiences with some of these things. So, without further ado, we're going to begin digging into what narcissism is and how to identify it. And, in our next podcast, we're going to dig into what codependency is. So you'll hear both of those terms today. And we're going to really define them for you so that, in our later discussions, as we're talking about identity, as we're talking about healing, as we're talking about topics like being the scapegoat in your family, or being the golden child in your family, or even an abusive relationship with God, these are all things that I want to bring up. But we really need to dig into these terms first. 

So let's start, first, in the DSM-5, the DSM-5 is the diagnostic manual for mental disorders. And it's the fifth version. The reason it's the fifth version is because we are always learning, always discovering more about mental health and about disorders. But the DSM-5 is the latest version. And, according to this manual, there are nine traits of a narcissist. 

Now I will say this: research is ongoing. There are actually 10 different kinds of narcissists. And the one that's described in the DSM tends to be an overt narcissist. It tends to be one that is more grandiose and malignant. Most of us coming from a background of high demand religion might know more of the martyr kind of narcissist, more of a covert narcissist. They have a tendency to be a lot quieter, or maybe even seem more humble or like they have a lower self-esteem. 

There are definitely overt narcissists in high demand religion, they're usually leaders, they're very visible, they usually have a lot of power, they can be really harsh with others in the congregation. But I find that most of my clients, their one-to-one interactions with narcissists tend to be more of the covert variety. People who humblebrag people who come across as having low self-esteem, people who are always the victim, or always the martyr. 

Now, the DSM-5 doesn't typically talk about these. I'm hoping the next version will talk about covert narcissism. But, for now, this is a good place to start. So according to the DSM-5, these are the nine traits that a person with narcissistic personality disorder could display. And, in order to be diagnosed, you need to have at least five of these. 

So, just like everything we talked about, it's on a spectrum, right? The more of these traits that someone has, the more narcissistic they act in their life, the more harm they're going to create in the lives of those around them. So some of these traits are a grandiose sense of self importance: they believe that they're more special than other people, basically. A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love. The belief that they're special and unique, and can only be understood by—or should associate with—other special or high-status people or institutions. 

The fourth one is a need for excessive admiration. They need constant validation, almost worship. A sense of entitlement. Interpersonally exploitative behavior (so they use other people). Often when you're with a narcissist you feel used. You don't feel seen, you don't feel like they see you as a human with needs of your own, you're simply there to serve them. 

A lack of empathy is a big indicator. They're unable to feel with you. They often will cut you off if you have feelings, or if you try to share your feelings or your experience, it has a tendency to be all about them. And, even then, they're not really able to share deep, vulnerable things. 

So they're out of touch with their own emotions. And, according to Brene Brown, in order for us to give empathy to someone, we have to be able to connect with something inside of us. So if they're disembodied—which remember, narcissistic personality disorder, just like all personality disorders, come about as a way to protect ourselves from deep, painful wounds in our psyche. This means that we dissociate with our bodies, that's what we do when we're in trauma. And so a person with narcissistic personality disorder has dissociated from themselves and created a fantasy self (which we'll talk about here in just a moment). And that keeps them from having to address the deep wound. 

So they have this very strong, either victim self, or special knight in shining armor, leader, king, or even god self, that helps them compensate for this deep wound that's inside of them. And so, because they are dissociated from their own feelings, and because they can't be vulnerable with themselves, it keeps them from being able to feel with others. 

Now, I know that you and I both know what this is like. I was a lot less empathetic whenever I was disembodied. When I was in clinical depression, I had a really difficult time empathizing with other people, because I was so wrapped up in my own problems, so involved in my own hurricane of emotions and feelings of worthlessness and feelings of isolation that I couldn't, I couldn't really make space for anyone else's feelings. That's the same for a person with narcissistic personality disorder. 

The next one is they have an envy of others or a belief that others are envious of them, and they often demonstrate arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes. Now—just a quick aside—often, when I'm talking about narcissism with one of my clients, inevitably what will happen is someone will say, "Oh, my gosh...I've done some of those things. Am I a narcissist?" And I want you to know that a person with narcissistic personality disorder would never ask that question. They are never the problem. Everyone else is the problem. The whole world is problematic, and they are the one, pristine part of the world that is never wrong. Never needs to apologize. 

If you're even thinking right now—I just want you to know—if you're even thinking, "Could I be the problem?" I promise you, you do not have narcissistic personality disorder, like it is so unlikely that you do. So just take a deep breath [inhales, exhales] and let that go. You're not the narcissist. Likely, what you are, if you're having that thought, is you're the codependent.

As the codependent, the narcissist has made you the problem, perhaps for your entire life, if you have a narcissistic parent. Anything that goes wrong in the relationship is your fault, not theirs, because they aren't able to take responsibility for the harm that they cause. Because it feels too threatening to their ego.

So, as codependents and recovering codependents, when we've been told that we're the problem, that we're the drama, that we're the person that's too sensitive, that we're the person who's not empathic, that we're not giving enough, that we're selfish, that we're arrogant, that we're full of ourselves, when we've been told that over and over and over again, when problems are always our fault, I find that, when we hear about problems and they sound familiar, sometimes we want to take that on ourselves. 

And I just want you to know that if you're asking yourself at all, "Am I the problem? Some of the sounds familiar. Maybe I've done some of these things. Is it possible that my relationship isn't working because of me?" I guarantee you you're not the person with narcissistic personality disorder. You're the codependent. 

Now, you may have some narcissistic traits because you're human. All humans have some narcissistic traits. It's when it affects our relationships adversely, and it's when we start exploiting other people and abusing other people that it's a problem, okay? 

So self-awareness is the first step to healing, and even those who have narcissistic personality disorder, if they were able to take off the armor that's protecting them—because this part of them that has narcissistic personality disorder was created to protect them from a really deep childhood wound, usually an attachment wound where they're afraid of being abandoned or unloved, and they believe that they're unlovable, that they're not enough. And they often are swimming in subconscious shame. But, because that's too painful to confront, they've created this self that protects them. And the self is very grandiose, thinks that they're better than everybody else, has convinced themselves that they are somehow more than your average person. And it is a mask, is what it is. It's a mask, it's a shield. 

So even a person with narcissistic personality disorder, if they could take off the shield and have some self awareness for a moment, if they could feel safe enough to do that for a moment, would have the ability to heal. Unfortunately, what we're finding, however, is that that shield is so ingrained, and the brain is so convinced that taking it off would be the death of that person, that, often, they never do put down their shield. They never feel safe enough to confront their childhood wound and so they continue to perpetuate the problems. 

So, if you're saying, oh my gosh, "I recognize myself here," know that you are self-aware enough to be like, "I've engaged in that behavior." Those with narcissistic personality disorder cannot, because being accountable would mean they'd have to admit that they were wrong, which brings up a lot of shame, which feels like death to a person with narcissistic personality disorder. 

So any self-awareness here means you very likely do not have NPD, okay? Let's get into these red flags. Let's talk about the everyday behavior and some of the things that you might see in a person with NPD. 

So the first one is lack of empathy. They have the inability to identify with or recognize the feelings of other people. Now, we often lack empathy when we're in a dissociative state. So when we don't feel safe with ourselves in our own bodies, feeling our own emotions, we also can't identify them in others. We can't feel with others when we can't feel with ourselves. Because narcissism is a highly protective part, meant to shield the person from feeling childhood and life pain, it is unsafe for the narcissist to allow themselves to be embodied. 

The way the body deals with that is like, "Okay, we're just going to disconnect from our body, which is where all of our emotions are," it's like, "Yeah, we're just gonna disconnect. And we're gonna live in this fantasy land in our head, where we're the most important, beautiful, successful and talented person in the world."

That's what a narcissist does. They disconnect from all their hard feelings. They decide, "You know what? We are not dealing with that difficult stuff. Instead, we're going to create a fantasy world where I'm the king (or I'm the queen) and everyone bows down to me." Or, in some instances, "...where I'm the god." 

I think some of us have been in high demand religions where we've had leaders that didn't just go to king or queen, they went straight up to, "I'm the God, and everyone will worship me, and I'm the most important person, and everyone is here to serve me, because I'm the most important person in this universe." And so they live in this magical, little place where they're the most important, the most loved, the most beautiful, the most successful, the most talented, and everyone's just lucky to be in their presence. 

So when we're living in that disembodied state, when we're living in that la-la land, we can't see or feel or hear the needs of other people. We are hardwired to connect, but when we disembody, when we're disconnected from ourselves, we can't connect with others. 

We can't have those deep, interpersonal connections because, in order for me to empathize with you—according to Brene Brown—I have to connect with something inside of me that knows that feeling. And, if I can't connect with myself to that feeling, then I can't empathize with you. So a person with narcissistic personality disorder cannot connect with other people, cannot empathize because they are so disconnected with themselves. 

Now, what this may look like in real life is you may have a parent that is forever talking about themselves, never asks you about your life, it just feels like they just want an ear to talk to. They want someone to hear them and validate them, and just listen to their life, but they seem largely disinterested in your life. 

Now, if this happens once, that's one thing, right? All of us have had conversations where we're like, "I just need this conversation to be about me. Like, can you just listen? Here we go..." This isn't even twice, but this is when it's the pattern, when all of the time—or I'll say the majority of the time because I know how us codependents can be, right? We can be like, "Well, there was not one time they made it about me. So it's not all of the time. So, therefore I'm the problem." No, no, no.—if, the majority of the time, it is all about them...if you get on the phone, and they're going on and on and on about their life, they don't draw breath, they don't ask you how you're doing, and they get annoyed with you if you have to pause for a minute and pay attention to your kids or go pee or something like that? That is a big, red flag. 

Another thing that might happen is they might become impatient or annoyed if you share your problems, or even just your life. So if you have a person that is hogging the conversation, and if you dare to share your life or your problems, they get really annoyed or frustrated or even just super impatient. They end the conversation quickly. Another big, red flag. 

And then last, when we get into like malignant narcissism, they may say hurtful, critical, or abusive things in just like a really nonchalant, offhanded manner, and remain oblivious to the hurt they caused. They may tell you that you look ugly in an outfit, or put down how smart you are, or how much you contributed, or they may call you a bad lover in bed in just a really offhanded nonchalant way, as if it's just a non-disputable fact without realizing how emotionally charged that is and how that would hurt your feelings. 

Which brings us to our next red flag, which is manipulation. So a person with NPD has the ability to twist the narrative in any situation to make themselves look better. Narcissists are masters at getting what they want. And, because they lack empathy, they don't realize (or they may not care) what it costs to someone else. 

They will especially manipulate in order to get their most basic needs met. And the most basic needs of a narcissist are attention, validation, and status. This is often called narcissistic supply. They are looking for people that they can, basically, extract or mine for attention and validation and status. 

So they don't see you as a person, they see you as a resource to be mined or exploited. You are there solely to provide them with the food that they thrive off of, the narcissistic supply: the validation, the attention, and the status. And this can be really, really painful when this is your parent, or when this is the person that you've decided to love, right? 

Now, an example of this might be a person that tries to twist the narrative about your own trauma, your own coping mechanisms, or your own childhood pain when you're trying to resolve conflict. So let's say you come up to a person and you say, "Hey, this thing that you did really hurt me. I'd like to sit and talk about it." And they say, "Oh, tell me about your childhood wound that is making the story for you or making this an issue for you." 

And, suddenly, now you're talking about your weaknesses, your vulnerabilities, your own shame, your own childhood wound, and they've now deflected the conversation away from any hurt that they may have caused. Because now you're the problem. You're the one with the childhood wounds, you're the one with the trauma causing the story. 

Now, that doesn't mean all relationships have two parts, right? All of us have our own trauma. So we all have stories we tell ourselves, we all have coping patterns. And we all do things to hurt one another. But if you find a pattern where you're coming in saying, "Hey, this thing that you did is hurting me," and it's always ending up on your lap as, "You're the problem. You're the person with trauma. You're the person with childhood pain that needs to be addressed," and they're suddenly psychoanalyzing you instead of owning their part of the story, then that's a big, red flag. 

The next one is projection. Okay, so this one is fascinating to me. When you have a person with narcissistic personality disorder, they are so self-protected, and so self-absorbed, that they will actually call out behavior in others that they're engaging in themselves. Like they'll accuse other people of doing things that they themselves are doing as a way to draw attention away from their faults. 

And they may even call out vulnerabilities or fears in other people, or weaknesses in other people, that are actually going on inside of them. That's why it's called projection is they're taking what's inside of them, what's in their own life, and projecting it onto other people to take that scrutiny away from themselves. Because it's so threatening to their fragile sense of self. 

They'll accuse you, not just of their own cheating and betrayal, but their own vulnerability and weakness. They are likely to accuse you of what they're doing and feeling because ownership of these things feel so subconsciously threatening to their sense of self-worth. 

Now, here's some examples just from my own life. You might see a guy on Facebook, calling out people who are pedophiles and calling for their capital punishment when he is one himself. That happened in my life. A person I know who is a serial pedophile, often calls out other people publicly, and, like, publicly shames, humiliates, calls for the punishment of other pedophiles. 

That is projection. Where you're calling out other people send when they're actually your sins. So that's projection. Whether it's true or not, he's not addressing his own guilt and shame about the pedophilia. Instead, he wants to look more righteous and more good by calling out other people. 

Another one might be when people tell you you're being overly sensitive when you try to problem-solve, or point out pain in a relationship. So, if you come to do some conflict resolution, and the person's like, "Oh, you're just being overly sensitive," actually, they're telling you, they're feeling overly sensitive. They don't feel like they can handle the emotional pain of dealing with conflict, they're feeling really fragile. But they don't want to admit that, so they're putting it on you: "You're just overly sensitive. You want to talk about this, because you've got all this sensitivity." When, actually, it's they don't want to talk about it, because they've got all this sensitivity. And they don't feel strong enough, mentally, to handle it. 

Alright, the next red flag is they're emotionally cold. Now, these people will be really shallow with their emotions. They might be able to tell you, when they're happy, tell you when they're sad, and tell you when they're angry. But they keep things really on-the-surface. They don't get vulnerable. If they do get vulnerable, it's because they're trying to manipulate you and get you on their side. 

But they'll have, like, their one vulnerable story that they feel comfortable sharing. And it's usually a victim story that tells you how life is unfair, and how they've overcome things that will always paint them as the hero in their story. They'll tell you about something really abusive or tragic that happened in their life, but they're the hero in the story. That's not the same as being emotionally deep, especially if they're sharing it really early in your relationship. 

So if you've just barely met this person, and they're telling you this really tragic, personal story, but then they're also painting themselves as the hero, that's oversharing. It's kind of a form of manipulation. It's a way to get you on their side and to start caretaking already. It's a quick way for them to start getting supply from you. And it can trick you into thinking like "Oh, this person is super deep, and look how vulnerable they are." And it can get you to start sharing vulnerable things about yourself that can possibly be used against you later. 

So a person with narcissistic personality disorder, they don't process their own emotions well, and they definitely do not do well with other people's emotions. This often means that, when you're struggling, you're going to be left uncomforted. So if that's happening a lot, like, when you are struggling, they're not there. When you have pain, they cannot comfort you or won't comfort you or—worse yet—ridicule you for being in pain. Or when you share something super-vulnerable and the other person simply doesn't respond (or if they do respond, they respond in a really cold manner). 

This can be difficult for those in relationships with the narcissist because normal human interaction involves warmth and connection when we see suffering. We are wired to connect. We're—we've got these mirror neurons inside of us and, when we see someone else in pain, we feel that pain inside of ourselves. 

But the only way we feel that pain inside of ourselves, the only way we can feel that empathy, is if we are connected with our body where we have that feeling. And, remember, earlier in the podcast, I was telling you that the trauma from the narcissist's early childhood is so painful that the way that they've dealt with that pain is they've dissociated. They've actually disembodied themselves. They're having sort of an out-of-body experience. And so they don't feel that connection that comes from the mirror neurons. 

But those of us who are still somewhat embodied, at least, we feel that connection. We haven't cut ourselves off from that. We're used to warmth and connection. And so, when we don't get that, it can sometimes make us jump through hoops trying to shake the other person awake, like, trying to get them to respond to us the way we're used to being responded to. 

This especially happens if we come from, like, a warm household and then we find ourselves in a relationship with a narcissist. I don't know if you've ever watched—there's a video of a baby with their mother that Kevin uses a lot in his therapy. And he's talking about how we're wired to connect. 

And it is heartbreaking to watch, but the mom is engaging with the baby and smiling, and it's talking about attachment theory, and then she goes dead-face. Like, she gray-rocks this baby for a full minute. And the baby tries to like engage the mom, and tries to point at things, and then, at one point, starts to get angry and starts to be like, "Hey, how come you're not engaging?" And she just sits there and, like, zero emotional response. And, eventually, the baby gets super uncomfortable and like starts pushing away.

We do the same thing that the baby does. We're hardwired for that. When someone isn't engaging with us, when we're used to that sort of engagement, we can jump through extra hoops thinking, like, "Maybe I just didn't communicate myself well enough, maybe you don't understand that I'm in pain." And so we can jump through extra hoops, trying to get the person to engage. 

But that also gives the narcissist supply, because they feel like they're in control. They didn't respond, you freaked out, that gave them something to feed off of. And, likely, what's going to happen is that pattern is going to continue in the future because they got a reward from it. 

So they created drama in your life, you freaked out, they fed off of that feeling of control of getting you to freak out. And so it's likely that that's going to repeat again. Just know that the emotionally cold thing can cause, sometimes, us to try harder to try to get that emotional response, and it may become a pattern. So maybe it wasn't a pattern before, but you may find that it will become a pattern in the relationship going forward. 

And we will talk about how to deal with this through a method called gray-rocking later. So if you've developed this sort of relationship with a narcissist in your life, and they like to push your buttons until you freak out, the reason they're doing that is because it provides them with a sense of control, a sense of superiority, a sense of supply. And it's what they feed off of. 

The drama gives them a sense of calm, that's their comfort zone. And so it gives them a sense of being in control and feeling calm, because of the chaos. So if you have somebody like that in your life, there is a method called gray-rocking, and we'll talk about that in just a minute. 

The next red flag is gaslighting. And I know a lot of us in the religious trauma community are super-familiar with gaslighting. But, basically, this term came from a 1930s play called "Gaslight". And the whole premise of the movie is that this guy wanted to drive his wife crazy. And so He slowly turned the gas light down and made it dimmer and dimmer and dimmer. And when she asked him about it, she was like, "Hey, why do you keep turning the gas light down?" He's like, "I'm not. It's just as bright as it always was." And, slowly what happens is, over time, in the play, she goes crazy. 

Any of us who have been gaslighted you'll feel yourself thinking, "Am I crazy? Like, that actually happened, right? Or did I just imagine that? Am I nuts?" So if you've ever had that feeling of, "I'm not crazy, right? Like, am I crazy?" You've probably been gaslighted.

So, gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse in which the narcissist will deny another person's experience by saying, "That never happened," or, "I was joking," or, "You're too sensitive." They're either downplaying the emotions or denying that it ever happened at all. 

They use techniques like withholding or stonewalling (which is that cold emotional response), contradicting (which is like saying "No, that didn't happen, what are you talking about?" or, "These are the actual facts," when that's not what happened). They whitewash whatever happened, or they change the narrative. Or they use diversion techniques, like where they bring up your childhood trauma or your problems to divert away from whatever it is you're discussing. 

This can look like bringing up something you did years ago when you bring up something that concerns you in the present. So they may use your weaknesses and imperfections as argument points of why you have no right to discuss conflict in the present. 

This may also look like minimizing your feelings or even denying events that definitely and sometimes provably—like with video—happened. The damage of gaslighting is that, over time, it leads you to feel confused and isolated and like you have to question your own reality. 

So, if you find yourself constantly apologizing—how many here, we're the kind of person that would say sorry over and over and over again? Yeah, me too. I was the kind of person that would apologize for apologizing. And then apologize for apologizing when I said I wouldn't apologize anymore. I just apologized for existing all the time. 

So if you are a person that finds yourself constantly apologizing, or if you feel always on edge without being able to relax, the chances are gaslighting has been part of your life. So that's something to get curious about. 

The next red flag is they only treat you well in public! Now, at the very beginning, they're gonna treat you well all the time. That's called lovebombing. And it's where they fulfill your every fantasy and need, because narcissists are really good at figuring out how to manipulate people. 

So, at the beginning, they may be every fantasy you've ever had. They may go over-the-top with compliments, and be really hyperbolic, and say that you're the prettiest person they've ever seen, or the smartest person they've ever seen. And they may be really, really generous with their money, or their time, or whatever. 

But they do this, specifically, to begin to manipulate you so that they can get what they want. They see it as an investment—not consciously, this is all subconscious—but they see it as an investment in order to start getting supply from you sooner. 

What happens is, once they start getting that steady supply, they start to undermine you. And, when you're in public, what's going to happen is the narcissist is going to be really kind and generous and actively loving towards you. But, maybe in private, they might be cruel, or dismissive, or largely detached. 

And this is going to be especially difficult for the person who's codependent, because they're proving that they know what you need, and that they're capable of providing it, but either they can't or they choose not to in private, and that can feel crazy-making. Their show in public is about controlling public perception of them as the perfect spouse, the perfect parent, or—in our case, right?—the perfect religion. 

The next red flag is they play the part of the victim. So they may manipulate a situation and play the victim to garner sympathy and attention. They might even seem like they relish the drama that the unfortunate event causes. 

They may even cause unfortunate events to happen so that they can play the victim and relish in the drama. Because, when the drama's happening, they're the center of attention and it provides them with narcissist supply. Remember: attention, validation, and status. That is the food that narcissists live off of.

The next one: they never take responsibility. So narcissists can't take responsibility, because that would mean admitting being wrong. And being wrong, for them, because they're steeped in shame, means that they are wrong. And this is too threatening to their fragile sense of self. So they deflect with lying, cheating, and everything in between. 

They'll make up complex excuses, and they will rationalize literally everything. Since narcissists are unable to identify the boundary between responsibility and blame, they'll actually avoid both. So they can't tell the difference between personal responsibility and someone blaming them for something that isn't their responsibility. So they'll just avoid any sense that there's anything that they could ever do wrong. They will never apologize. 

What's interesting is I come from a religion that literally says, "We will never apologize." You can never expect an apology from the religion I came from. That alone is what got me going with, "Can an organization be narcissistic?" So I'm still exploring that. I'll let you know what I find out as I find it out. 

Okay, next red flag is they're controlling. They try to dictate your life. And, often they're successful. The longer you're with a narcissist, the more control they tend to have over your life, because they break down your sense of self, they break down your boundaries, they break down your identity, until you get to a point where you don't even know what you like or don't like. Because there can be such psychological abuse, if you choose something the narcissist doesn't like, you can be really hesitant to make any decisions on your own, know how to spend your time on your own. 

I mean, it can really, really mess with your mind. I mean, you may feel like you can't move, you can't make a decision, you can't even like something without first asking for permission. And that control is then used to isolate you, which further makes you dependent on the narcissist. 

And here's something you need to know about narcissism is they don't want your desire. They don't want you to desire to be with them, because that fluctuates. That's not a sure thing. Remember, this narcissistic personality disorder is a protective device that is shielding some really big wounds. 

And what we know from research is a lot of the people with narcissistic personality disorder have big attachment wounds from their childhood. And so they don't want you merely to desire them, or to want to be with them. They need you to need them. Because if you rely on them, if they are your sole source of self-worth, and of identity, the chances of us leaving are much much lower. 

It really does give them a sense of security, that you're not going anywhere because you can't, because you're isolated and you rely on them for everything. So controlling may look like monitoring your whereabouts all the time. Or checking your email or text messages. Or controlling or criticizing what you wear, or how you cut your hair. Or it might even look like making important decisions for your life with little regard for your opinion. Those are just some of the ways that controlling behavior can come up. 

The next red flag is they can be so grandiose. They exaggerate their accomplishments, their talents, their connections, and their experiences. They may believe their existence is bigger and more important than anyone else's, and especially yours. And they repeatedly boast about their accomplishments, their wealth, their possessions, or their experiences. 

And this can include humblebragging, where it sounds like they're being humble, but actually they're bragging about how virtuous, or how good, or how generous they are, okay? This one can be a little interesting. It can be just, "Look at my house, look at my car, look at all my wealth, look at all the pretty women, look at...blah, blah, blah."

You see this a lot in early Mormon leaders' lives, where they're talking about all the women that they get. Brigham Young would be like, "No young man can compete with me. I've had 54 wives, and the women are still flocking to my door. No one can beat me, as far as getting women." That is a grandiose behavior. 

Or it could be like Joseph Smith saying that he's done more than even Jesus to get a peaceful community together. Jesus is highly revered, so trying to, like, set yourself above other people who are highly revered to show that you're even better than them, that's grandiosity. 

You might have somebody in your life that shows grandiosity, and so they might do it in this really overt way. Like, "Look at all the women I can get. Look at how wealthy I am. Look at how powerful I am." Or they might do it in a, "Look at how humble I am. Look at how generous I am. Look at how much of myself I give to the Church or to this family." You might see this especially with martyrs, so people who play the victim or the martyr in a more quiet, covert narcissism. 

Alright, we've gone through the red flags. My guess is that you know somebody who fits a lot of these traits. And they might be somebody that's close to you, or someone that you've had a close relationship with. And my guess is that you are carrying around some psychological trauma from your relationship with this person, whether you're still in a relationship with them or not. 

And I want you to know that this is trauma. That's not hyperbole. When I say that this is psychological trauma, it presents like C-PTSD, and we'll talk some more about what C-PTSD is, in another episode, because I think that's important to understand. C-PTSD is continuous trauma that happens over time. And that's definitely what happens in a relationship with someone with narcissistic personality disorder, or in an organization that was created by somebody with NPD, right? 

What happens with trauma is it gets stored in your body. So this isn't just happening in your head, trauma actually gets stored in your body. That's why it's easy for you to wrap your head around the idea that you're worthy, but you can't feel it and believe it in your body...YET. 

I want to put that "yet" there because I want you to understand that healing does take time, and it does take effort, but it is possible. Sometimes it can feel like you are going to be like this forever, and you're always going to have this low sense of self-worth, or this confusion about what you like and don't like, or what you want, or what your purpose is, and you won't. 

In fact, as awful as the trauma was, I'm finding that some of my biggest gifts—about knowing myself and understanding the world, and expanding just what I'm capable of—have come from my trauma. So, while I would never wish the trauma on anyone, there have been gifts that have come from working through the trauma. The trauma has become part of my self-discovery journey and, in some ways, have taught me to love myself on a deeper, more profound level. 

Just know, if you're just coming out of religious trauma, or if you're just now starting to confront narcissistic abuse in a family system or a religious system, that there are some difficult things we'll have to work through, right? There are difficult things that we're going to have to confront, painful wounds, and it can be a beautiful part of learning to love and understand yourself better. And you are not going to be like this forever. There is a light at the end of this tunnel, and that light is bright, and beautiful, and illuminating, and a beautiful life is ahead of you. 

You might not be able to feel it or believe it in your body right now. But, as you continue to take steps to get to know yourself, and be curious with yourself, hold yourself with compassion, you will build that relationship with yourself.

If, after listening to this podcast, you found yourself saying, "I think I have someone like this in my life. I think maybe I'm carrying around a lot of beliefs about myself and about the world." Or, "I'm having a really hard time recovering my sense of identity, or my ability to feel again after this," that's a really common thing, to lose your ability to feel and to feel safe and comfortable in your body and with yourself. 

If you find yourself really struggling making decisions, or discovering what you like and what you don't like, setting boundaries, or even just figuring out what you want in life, or where you want to go, if you feel a little frozen in that place, know that you're not alone. That is really common for people healing from religious trauma, and also healing from narcissistic abuse. 

If you would like additional help with this, please contact me either at my email (teri@emancipatedcoaching.com), or you can just go to my website, emancipatedcoaching.com, and click the Contact button, send me a message. 

Or, if you would like, please go to social media, send me a private message, let me know that you would like to talk about this. And we can talk back and forth and give you some options of what you can do to meet your needs and help you start moving this trauma through your body and start feeling more comfortable in your body. And then, of course, being able to then use that safety in your body and that reconnection to your emotions to rediscover who you are, what you want, what you like, what you don't like, what you believe, and what you value. 

One of those options may be going to the Emancipate Yourself app. I have two courses over there. One of them is about reconnecting with yourself, getting back into your body and feeling safe in your body again, being able to recognize emotion and name it, and then use it as a way to discover who you are, what you like, what you want, what you value, and what you believe. 

I created this app specifically because so many people are going through religious deconstruction right now. And there really aren't enough mental health professionals in this field. And there aren't enough coaches. And I wanted everyone who wanted some sort of guidance or help to have access to that. 

So not only are there courses, there is a weekly live group coaching call where I answer people's questions, help them work through blocks that are coming up, or limiting beliefs that are coming up, or any struggles that they are discovering. We've been having some really beautiful calls and I'm really excited about what this is going to look like moving forward. 

Also on the app is a list of mental health professionals who help specifically with religious trauma in one-to-one therapy. And, as I'm discovering more therapists (because more and more are coming onto the scene every day), I'm adding them to the directory. So, if you know of therapists, if you're already seeing one, and you want them added to the directory, let me know. I'm putting everything there, and everyone has access to that.

There's a free membership to the app, where you can access all of the directories. If you want to access the courses and the live group coaching calls, there is a subscription. It's $39.99 a month, and that gets you four weekly group coaching calls. It gets you step-by-step courses. There are two courses that have already been published. And I'm currently working on the third. So, lots of guidance, to take you through what you're experiencing, help you get curious with it, help you hold yourself with compassion, and begin to move trauma through your body and create a sense of safety with yourself. 

So that might be one of the things we talk about in the messaging. But we'll also talk about one-to-one therapy. We'll talk about books you can read, other podcasts you can listen to, I'm here to help. My primary concern—the reason I started this podcast, created the app, and do all of the work I do—is because I want to be a force for good in the world. And this is something I'm highly interested in. This is where my gifts and talents and interests intersect with the need in the world. 

So never hesitate to take up space, to contact me, to ask questions. I love hearing from you. So thank you so much for joining me for this podcast today. I hope it was enlightening. And I hope it gave you a sense of peace, that if you've been in a relationship with a person with narcissistic personality disorder, that it wasn't because you did something wrong. 

Which I know you were probably told that a lot; It wasn't because you did something wrong, or that you weren't enough, or that you just didn't try hard enough. This is a disorder that the person you are in a relationship with is experiencing. It's their way of protecting themselves. And the way that they treated you, honestly, had nothing to do with you.

So I hope this was helpful. I hope it was enlightening. And I look forward to talking more next week about codependency and how we created those patterns and became susceptible to narcissism in the first place, how religion may have played a part in that, how generational trauma may have played a part in that. So we can have compassion for ourselves for being in relationships, either with people or organizations, that exhibit narcissistic qualities. 

I look forward to that conversation, as I do every week, and thank you so much for joining me on this journey.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai