Teri Hales  0:15  
Welcome to the Emancipate Your Mind Podcast. I'm your host, Certified Religious Transition and Trauma Recovery Coach, Teri Hales. I help people step out of the shadows of religious fear and shame, and embrace their authentic selves with love and empathy. If you're ready to throw off the shackles of learned binary thinking, and explore a more nuanced approach to life, this is your playground.

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Emancipate Your Mind podcast. I am so excited that we are ending the last couple of episodes of this year in 2022 with my husband who's a Licensed Professional Counselor. He does marriage and family therapy here in Colorado. Kevin Hales, welcome to the program. 

Kevin Hales  1:10  
Thank you. 

Teri Hales  1:12  
Today we're going to be talking about something he and I have had several conversations about in the past. And I felt like with all the talk that we've been having about the patriarchy and how it affects women, that it would be helpful to have a conversation about how a patriarchal system affects men, too. Because it's not just women that are affected in the system. It has power over men as well. And so I thought I'd just have Kevin here. We're just gonna have a conversation about some of the things we've talked about before. And yeah, let's go ahead and get started. 

First of all, what is fragile masculinity? That's kind of the topic of our conversation today. What is that?

Kevin Hales  1:57  
Well, how would you define it? Because when I talk about masculinity, and in the room with my clients, I'll often use the word toxic masculinity. And I think you've talked about you see a difference between the two, right?

Teri Hales  2:12  
I do. Yeah. So for me, fragile masculinity and toxic masculinity both have their roots in an insecurity about being a man. 

Kevin Hales  2:22  
Okay. 

Teri Hales  2:22  
And for me, fragile masculinity is milder than toxic masculinity, toxic masculinity kind of gets over into the like, abuse, kind of violent place for me.

Kevin Hales  2:37  
So it sounds like you're looking at it on more of a spectrum? Yeah, they would both fall on the same spectrum as the spectrum of masculinity, I guess.

Teri Hales  2:45  
Yeah. So like, at one end of the spectrum, I would see like healthy masculinity. And then probably, you know, and then at the other end of the spectrum, you'd have toxic masculinity. Is that how you see it? Or?

Kevin Hales  3:01  
I honestly, you know, until you've brought it up more recently, I don't know that I've given it a whole lot of thought, although I think, I mean, I try to see as many things as possible on a spectrum, because very few things are really, you know, good and bad, right and wrong. It's almost everything is going to fall on this spectrum. I think we've talked about that in some of our, or other episodes together. And so, I mean, it would make sense that, that, you know, masculinity would fall on a on a spectrum as well. I actually just talked to the wife of one of my couples recently, and he doesn't want to meet with me anymore, because I actually brought up the topic of toxic masculinity and in our one on one session together, so it's obviously an uncomfortable topic for, I think, a lot of men to talk about and discuss and, and come to grips with, so.

Teri Hales  3:56  
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that that's the same can be said, anytime we realized that some of our patterns of behavior that stem from our own sense of insecurity might be causing other people harm. I think that is hard to talk about, because we have to sit and we have to do some work with ourselves. And I think the other thing that's coming up for me too, is it's not just masculinity that can be on that spectrum that leads towards toxicity. I think feminism can also be on that spectrum that leads towards toxicity. And I think we'll talk about some of that today and how it kind of dances and plays along with this fragile masculinity. Right? Yeah. So I guess just as a working definition, fragile masculinity, for me would be when we feel like there is a right way to be a man, and anytime we don't feel like we're fitting the man box, we act out in a ways that sometimes are harmful from this place of insecurity as if our manhood is being-- I say "our",  I'm not a man -- but as if our, like our gender is being questioned?

Kevin Hales  5:14  
Yeah, and I guess I don't know, like, I think I would think of toxic masculinity is something that is just on the extreme end of that spectrum. So because anything can be toxic. And I guess that's the way I think of that word toxicity is that it's more towards the extreme end of that spectrum, whatever that spectrum is that we're, we're discussing, you know, so take, for example, one of the spectrums I often talk about and refer to, in my sessions with people are, on one end of the spectrum is being selfish. And on the other end of the spectrum is being self less. And I often use that one because, you know, when I'm meeting with somebody for therapy, we're talking about them, and we're talking about, hey, you need to take care of yourself, and hey, what are you doing to, you know, improve yourself and take care of yourself and all that stuff. And that's usually one of the biggest roadblocks is that feeling of selfishness that feeling that I shouldn't be taking care of myself, I should be taking care of other people. It's selfish, you know, and, and so. So if we're looking at that on a spectrum, one would argue that it's toxic, you know, it's not healthy, to be 100% Selfish, only thinking about myself and nobody else, right, because and that's something most of us will agree to, because that's what we've been raised with. And that's what we've been told our whole lives. That how many times have we talked about the toxicity of being selfless? And that, you know, if we go to that extreme, that's also toxic, that's also unhealthy. So I don't know, I guess, I guess, when I'm thinking of, you know, toxicity, and we're talking about masculinity, I guess toxic masculinity, in my mind is taking it, you know, to that extreme, which is how, you know, I would say a lot of men have had been raised in their life. And even if they weren't raised, necessarily in that type of environment, they've still been exposed to and are familiar with a lot of those toxic expectations and rules and concepts.

Teri Hales  7:27  
Well, and I think, you know, even if you grew up with a father, or in a family that allowed you to be maybe a more full expression of manhood, you probably were on a sports team, or in a classroom, where you were told that, guys don't cry, suck it up. Or maybe you had a friend group that, you know, called you a pansy or called you a girl, if you cried too much, or if you showed emotion. And we see that in media, and it's just kind of in society as well. So it's not like, it's not like we're ever fully insulated from the patriarchal system. As a whole, it permeates our entire society, right. And so, I mean, we've talked already for the last couple of weeks about how patriarchy really gives women a box that they're supposed to be in, they're supposed to be quiet, submissive, beautiful, love children, and are there to serve and be selfless, not just to men, but to other women and to their children, that they're supposed to kind of lose themselves in the service of others. They're supposed to be pleasing. And yeah, that there's a lot of things that are that go into that like sugar and spice and everything nice sort of expectation for women. And there's a similar expectation in patriarchal systems for men, what is the expectation? Would you say, for men?

Kevin Hales  9:00  
In other words, what does it mean to be a man?

Teri Hales  9:02  
Yeah, what does it mean to be a man in a patriarchal system? Like, what does that stereotype look like?

Kevin Hales  9:08  
Well, I think it's those traditional messages and expectations that, you know, a lot of men have heard growing up, suck it up, be a man, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Don't be a pussy, grow a pair, so on and so forth. Right? Those messages of it's not okay to be emotional. You shouldn't cry. Anything along those lines, I think is are those messages that contribute to that? And of course, if I do any of those things, then I'm shamed for it. I'm, I'm mocked. I made fun of because I was doing some of those things that weren't acceptable by the society and the family and the culture around me.

Teri Hales  9:57  
Yeah. What are the expectations when it comes? comes to like work for stereotypical men?

Kevin Hales  10:04  
Well, obviously, I think, any job that fits into that, that realm of it's okay or acceptable to do this job, you know. So, in my line of work, for example, men are a minority and I, you know, to be honest, I'm not sure why that is, you know, maybe it's just simply because most men, you know, aren't as emotionally mature or in touch or able to be empathetic or compassionate with other people. And I think a lot of that we would chalk up to just the way they are raised, but but there's, I think, maybe a subconscious or conscious, you know, idea that that's not a manly job, or, you know, that's maybe not something that you would feel comfortable expressing to other people whereas, I you were a professional sports player or, you, I don't know, do something more manly and rugged and, you know, tough then, that that might be something you'd feel more comfortable sharing with others and maybe even feel like you're, you can, you can boast or, you know, be proud of it.

Teri Hales  11:23  
Yeah, I think whenever I think of stereotypical male jobs, like what comes to mind are not just the like masculine, rugged jobs, like construction worker comes to mind, like carpenter plumber, cowboy comes to mind growing up in Texas as well, like rancher, farmer, that sort of thing. But also, CEO comes to mind, scientist comes to mind, people who work with finances, with numbers, with math. It seems like intellectual jobs, jobs that take a lot of brainpower-- rocket scientist-- you know, brain surgeon, all those kinds of things, Doctor, lawyer, tend to be masculine jobs. I mean, even when I was at BYU, and wanting to go into international business, it was predominantly men in the classroom, which is why I was pulled aside and told I was taking up a spot for a man that was going to use that job. So whereas, you know, teachers, nursing, child care, education, those were-- and therapy -- those were the classes that were predominantly populated by women. And so, yeah, yeah, I think that there's definitely like some discrepancies there. Like if it has to do with caretaking or with children, they're typically, you know, populated by women If it has to do with science, with math with you know, anything that's like hands on building that tends to be dominated by men, I would say--  business. Yeah. 

So when it comes to relationships, and you would have a lot of experience with this as a marriage and family therapist, do you find that the roles for men, like there's expectations that even women have, maybe of men and who they're supposed to be in the relationship?

Kevin Hales  13:19  
Oh, sure, definitely. Yeah. It's, it's, in fact, one of my, my male clients was just talking about this the other day, you know, how he's working through some addiction habits of his that he's, you know, had for a long time, and, and they're, you know, affecting his relationship with his wife. And so they're both reading a book and talking about how, you know, when he's struggling with some of these things, when he's feeling stuck, or not sure what to do, one of the things they suggest in the book is to go to your wife, you know, go to your spouse, and let them know that you're struggling, let them know that you're in a tough spot. And his wife actually said to him, that she thought that was kind of wimpy, was was her word. And you know, what that reminded me of there was-- we were listening to Brene Brown or maybe reading one of her books years ago, but she said something along those lines, how, how early on in her work, she was focused primarily on women and helping women. And, and I think, what she was approached by a man?

Teri Hales  14:25  
Book signing

Kevin Hales  14:26  
Yeah, yeah. And he asked her, you know, when are you going to talk about men when you're going to talk about, you know, vulnerability and shame, you know, with with men? And I think she said something along the lines of, "Well I'm not, you know, that's not my focus," or something and, and he said something like, I don't know, "well, that's convenient", and then just kind of walked off, you know, and so, I just remember her talking about that, and how, what an impactful moment that was for her. And then there's also another experience she shared where she was, you know, talking to a man and he and he was just so grateful for what she was writing or talking about. But he was talking about the the difficult position he was in, in his relationship, because, and I can't remember exactly the wording, but it was he said something along the lines of, "My wife would rather I die as the knight in shining armor on my horse, than to fall off", or something, 

Teri Hales  15:23  
Yeah, to be vulnerable and fall off and be human, down on the ground with the rest of us. And just like, I mean, you've, you've heard me talking about some of these ideas over dinner. And you know, just in passing, as we've been conversing over the last couple of months, even really, for the last couple of years. And we've talked about how it's not like the patriarchy, the men, are all in charge and it's men keeping women in a box and men keeping men in a box. Women are just as guilty of keeping men in their masculine box and women in their hyper feminine box. It's both-- it's all of us, right? Like saying, this is your role, and this is your role, and we can't mix. And I think it's really important for us to recognize that part of this fragile masculinity, are the expectations of women, of wives saying, "This is who you're supposed to be as an earner, as a career person, this is who you're supposed to be as a husband". I think many women do expect their husbands to be stoic, to not have difficult feelings to-- It's almost like we want our husbands to listen to our difficult feelings and like hold those, but we don't want to then hold their vulnerability and their difficult feelings and help them work through grief and pain, and, you know, sadness and frustration and all of those things. I think we have expectations about sex, when it comes to men, what would you say the expectations about sex are? And I think you probably see a lot of that in your therapy room as well. 

Kevin Hales  17:02  
Oh, sure. Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a lot of performance anxiety, you know, that that always happens in the bedroom, Probably for both men and women, right? But at least with men, yeah, it's this idea that you've got a certain size of penis and that the bigger, you know, the more pleasurable you are, and then holding it long and hard and the, in the bedroom and, and I don't know, just just this idea that you are this, just animal, you know, this person who can please your woman over and over and over again. And if you can't, if you can't hold an erection, if you can't please her or so forth, then that feels like a huge knock on your, your masculinity and your ability to be a man, you know, I mean, that's part of why the pharmaceutical industry has killed it over the decades, you know, with, with erectile dysfunction pills, but those pills don't necessarily fix, you know, the problems, they just give you the ability to maintain an erection for, you know, an extended period of time. And, and some of those issues probably could be addressed on a psychological level if people were willing to, to work through that. So, yeah, I mean, the those are probably some of the first things that come to mind for me.

Teri Hales  18:32  
Absolutely. Well, and I mean, even going back into the beginning of our marriage, even though you and I both had sexual thoughts and feelings and fantasies squashed-- we were not supposed to think about it, we weren't supposed to dwell on it, read about it, masturbate, none of that. And yet, I still remember on our wedding night, believing that you were supposed to know what you were doing. And you were going to teach me somehow even though neither of us had any education in that there was this prevalent idea in my head that you would know what you were doing and you would teach me about my body. That somehow you'd magically understand how my body worked. And you would like open that for me. And I mean, it took us years to recognize Actually, no, I have to tell you about my body. And you have to tell me about your body. And this is like something that we do together. And but I think that this is a prevalent idea is that men know more about sex and that they that they're supposed to be the teachers about, you know, how it works and you know, what, what brings people pleasure. So, I'm sure that there's a bunch of shame about that when you don't know what you're doing. I mean, I've heard from some of my clients that one of the most embarrassing things is is to go back out into the dating world having just had one sexual partner, not really knowing what you're doing, maybe even having a wife that hasn't been very interested in sex, and then going out there and trying to like, navigate the dating scene in your 30s or 40s. And knowing that there's this expectation that women may have that he's going to know all these things, because he's in his 30s or 40s, and should have this like vast sexual experience when actually, he feels more like a teenager.

Kevin Hales  20:35  
Yeah. Well and there's just a recent study that came out about how fewer and fewer men are having sex and, and so of course, you know, that's begs the question from a lot of people, you know, why, you know, what's going on? And, and obviously, we don't know all the answers to what that is. But yeah, it's something we'll have to continue exploring. And one thing I we do know for sure, is that pornography is becoming more and more widely used as a education tool for learning about sex and for anyone that has looked at, you know, pornography, that's not a realistic portrayal, generally speaking, of what, you know, a sexual relationship looks like, because it's typically portraying, you know-- it's portrayed, largely for the eyes of a man. And, and the woman is almost always receptive, eager, anxious, and--

Teri Hales  21:47  
always orgasms. 

Kevin Hales  21:48  
Right. Yeah. And again, there's, there's, I think, you know, going back to, you know, some of those expectations, I remember, that was something I often asked you a lot, you know, early in the marriage was, did you orgasm, right? Because, in my mind, if you didn't, that somehow felt like a failure on my part that I wasn't pleasing you, that I wasn't, you know, man enough, or something along those lines. And so understanding that sex isn't just about the orgasm is important. And obviously, that's another good example of how everything is, seen from a man's perspective, because for a man, you know, we we generally only have one orgasm. And that's, that's it. And then that's, that's the whole climax and experience, whereas, you know, for women, of course, they can have multiple orgasms, and it's, it's more of a sexual experience, not just a sexual moment. Right. Does that feel right to say?

Teri Hales  22:53  
No, absolutely. That feels right to me. And I'm really excited to talk more about sex in 2023. Because I think it's something we need to delve into. You and I have read quite a few books, and I'm actually about to read another one-- cliterate? "Becoming Cliterate", right? "Come As You Are". If you're reading this and you're like, I would love to understand more about female sexuality, especially like if you're listening to this as a man and you're like, I still don't know what I'm doing. It's probably because your woman doesn't know what she's doing either. And huge eye opening moment reading "Come As You Are" by Dr. Emily Nagoski. But also "Becoming Cliterate" is an incredible book. I've heard nothing but good things. I'm about to read it as well. There are several books out there that help explain the female orgasm, which happens mostly in our heads. Whereas for men, it happens mostly in a physical way. Right? So it's physical stimulation, and you usually end up orgasming. For women, It's-- I mean, I could be thinking about the laundry, I could be thinking about past trauma, I could be thinking about, like, there's all kinds of things that could be thinking about if I don't allow myself to-- especially when we're disembodied, right. So for those of us with past trauma, it's not uncommon for women to have a hard time orgasming because we have dissociated with our bodies. And it's hard to have an orgasm when you're mentally dissociated. 

Yeah. So let's talk about what some of the consequences are, when we're in this box, and we're expected to be a man-- and this is true for being in the box that you're expected to be as a woman as well. Anytime you are restricted, and you're told this is who you have to be to be a real man or a real boy. What does that do to somebody?

Kevin Hales  24:50  
Oh, just like any scenario or situation where you are expected to fall in line and behave and act and believe in a certain way, it's always going to feel disingenuous, you know, and so, I mean, obviously, anyone coming from a culty, high demand religion background is going to understand that, you know, because there are many, many aspects about that, that didn't resonate with you that didn't fit with who you were who, what you believed, and so on, and so forth. And so, so I think those are the commonalities we're going to see in those situations is whether I'm, you know, supposed to act a certain way as a man or a woman for that matter. And if that doesn't resonate, it's, it's-- we're going to feel disingenuous, we're going to feel trapped, we're going to feel fake. And you'll play along for a time and you might try to pretend or act, you know, in those ways to make others proud of you or happy or just to avoid conflict or something. But at some point, it's not going to work anymore. And for some people that comes at a much sooner time in their life. And for others, it's much, much later, but either way, it's not sustainable.

Teri Hales  26:21  
Yeah. Well, and I think about myself as a teenager, which I think is when I first became aware that I didn't fit the Mormon narrative for what a woman should be, right that if I were to just be authentically myself that I did not fit into that traditional female box. Like, there was a part of me that loved making cakes and loved cooking and loved, like, some of the things that were considered feminine. But there was also a part of me that wanted to be in a boardroom,  wanted higher education-- I would dream about having, you know, a doctorate degree, I dreamed about traveling the world. Kids were never on my radar. I did not like babysitting. But I specifically remember walking into Young Women's, for one of our talks on chastity, and modesty and stuff like that. And we spent some time talking about modesty, which she considered the girl problem. But then we started talking about masturbation and like, sexual thoughts. And I remember the teacher saying, "I mean, I know you guys don't deal with this, this is not a problem for you. This is a boy problem". But she was like, but I'm supposed to teach it anyway. And I remember being like, "Uhhhh. I think about sex on the daily". There was a part of me, that felt incredibly anxious, because I was being told what the mold was, I was being told what the box was. And it was very obvious to me that I didn't fit in the box. And I was really afraid of someone finding out that I had sexual thoughts. Well, and especially because of the transphobia that I was taught, and the homophobia that I was taught, I was afraid that there was a part of me, like, I was afraid that maybe I was transgender, that I was supposed to have been born a boy. Because there was no room for a woman that had both feminine and masculine traits. And because it wasn't okay to be a full human, it really created a lot of anxiety for me. I don't know if you ever experienced anything like that at church?

Kevin Hales  28:43  
Yeah, I'd have to give it some thought. I mean, probably not to the degree that that you're describing, but I mean, there's always going to be certain elements that, you know, you're not comfortable sharing with other people and wanting them to know about, right? As you know, one of my friends growing up, you know, he's really into cooking and gardening and, you know, and he's, he has all these, what we would typically describe as non masculine or, you know, feminine traits. Yeah, just things that he never even really shared them with me, you know, growing up these interests and ideas. It wasn't until later and he was, you know, more of an adult and I think maybe a little bit more comfortable in his skin. But I wouldn't be surprised if these are still things that he doesn't necessarily share with everyone because there will be that immediate judgment and, you know, criticism that would probably come with that.

Teri Hales  29:44  
Yeah. Well, and by all accounts, he is a very masculine person who also likes to wear pink aprons in the kitchen and bake dainty little cookies and, you know, swap gardening tips with me. And I think what really frustrates me is that we don't make more room. And I think we're doing better. But still, there's this idea that there is a right way to man. And there's a right way to woman. And I think that's part of the reason we see so much transphobia. And we see so much homophobia, and we see so much just shaming of people who don't fit the mold. And I think that comes from our own deep seated insecurity. So, for instance, I was telling you about how, you know, as a teen, I was aware that there were these masculine parts of me, that did not fit the narrative. And the more I tried to suppress those things, the more I judged them in other women. So the more judgmental I became of women wearing power suits, you know, standing in that, CEO role--the more I really had vehement feelings towards women who were sexually liberated, right, or who, you know, really didn't want to settle down and have a husband or kids. And I think it's because I knew that I was really suppressing parts of myself in order to fit the mold. And I think that there was a part of me that was upset that other people weren't having to work that hard, that they had thrown out the rules. And I think subconsciously, that felt really unfair to me, does that like resonate with you that people tend to judge others when they're not completely secure with themselves? And--

Kevin Hales  31:39  
oh, yeah, I mean, like, how many times you hear about a homophobic, you know, just person or pastor or politician or something, and then not long after you hear about them being caught with a, you know, a prostitute of the same sex or, or doing something, you know, quote-unquote, naughty, that they shouldn't have been caught doing? You know, it's like, it was just someone recently where Jerry Falwell, Jr, right? Was was caught with his wife, and I think they call him the pool boy or whatever, right? You know, the, this, this young man who would apparently come have sex with his wife, and he would watch you know, and, and it's funny, because when I heard that, I had a mix of feelings. On the one hand, the old conservative, Christian, me was appalled, and so disgusted, because that wasn't traditionally in line with, you know, Christian teachings and ideas of, quote-unquote, what's right and wrong to do sexually in the bedroom. And then there's the other, I don't know, more liberated, free thinking, post religion, me that's like, who cares? Like, who cares what they're doing behind closed doors, And let them you know, explore these sexual fantasies and what not. And so, so funny to hear all the uproar in the Christian community over this, and of course, they they immediately resign and slink away into Shameville and are never heard from again. Although I did see that there's a documentary coming up about that whole experience. It might be interesting to watch. But yeah, it's just interesting, you know, to, to see such interesting reactions, because of these people's ideas of what's right and wrong. Versus again, this other part of me is like, well, who cares? You know, it really doesn't matter what I think and doesn't matter what anyone thinks, what anyone's doing, you know, behind closed doors, but the phobic, you know, people are out there, and they're they want to force you to believe the same way they do. And, and that's the world we live in. And we've got to fight against that, you know, we've got to fight against the theocracy that people out there trying to, to create-- in the United States, at least, you know, and probably other countries as well.

Teri Hales  34:14  
Yeah. Well, I think part of the problem when it comes to Jerry Falwell, Jr, is that he was part of the theocracy, condemning other people for what he felt was sexual indiscretion while living a double life, and I think that's really where we get into some of these problems is we have people that are really preaching against and saying "Here is the box. Fit in the box, this is the right way to do it". And then when they get caught outside of the box, I think that's really where a lot of the problems happen, because there really shouldn't be a box anyway. Like we should get to make those decisions for ourselves and decide what feels right for us. 

Kevin Hales  34:56  
Right. But to your point, when you don't feel comfortable doing that, you know, when it falls outside that box, then you become extra preachy and critical and judgmental of other people who, who are doing those things that you kind of want to do and enjoy guilt free. But you can't because because you're not allowed to.

Teri Hales  35:18  
Yeah, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. So people who are expected to live in this box-- and all of us have boxes presented to us-- it's not like some of us get boxes, and others of us don't. All of us have been presented with boxes about who we're supposed to be how we're supposed to live. And we've talked about how that affects us. It can create anxiety,  for some people it creates depression. It can create the desire to numb, to dissociate from those feelings of inauthenticity. How does this affect us in our relationships, when we're living inside this box, and we're having to deny parts of ourselves that don't fit?

Kevin Hales  36:00  
Well, I think you just named a couple of those things we want to do when we're feeling disingenuous and not authentic. When we don't feel free to be ourselves, we have a tendency to seek a relief from that pain, that loneliness, that heartache, that anxiety, that depression. And that's where a lot of addictions, you know, are formed. Because we're seeking an escape, we're seeking a numbing to all of those things that we're feeling. And anytime, something or someone takes priority over the other people in our lives, that's obviously going to create a lot of relationship struggles and issues. Yeah. So. And it's funny, because sometimes we like to talk about, okay, what are the main things we fight about in our relationships, you know. And if anyone's curious, the top three things typically tend to be sex, money, and division of chores and labor in the home. Sometimes in different orders, you know, sometimes you'll hear those in different, you know, rankings, but, but it doesn't really matter what the things are that we fight, because it's more about what those fights in those arguments represent. And so, in all of those examples, the reason we fight about those things is because it starts to take on a higher priority than me. I start to feel like you working more as a higher priority than me. I start to feel like you watching sports all the time, as a higher priority than me. I start to feel like you reading your book, or watching TV shows or working out or any number of things. If I feel like that is taken on a higher priority than me, then it's going to be a problem. And it's it's going to come up as conflict and arguments and fights in the relationship.

Teri Hales  38:13  
Yeah. So anytime we feel like someone is giving undue attention to something above our relationship, we start to feel maybe some resentment or some, maybe some attachment wounds. Is that what I'm hearing?

Kevin Hales  38:30  
Yeah, well, I mean, it it'll probably bring up some of our, our old attachment wounds, you know. But yeah, it feels threatening, I think, to the relationship. I don't know if we always recognize it that way. Right? Because that's why people do get caught, you know, in their, their conflict cycles with each other and, and are arguing about the trash being taken out or you being on your phone or any number of things. But, but that's not actually what we're fighting about. It's just the deeper issues is the deeper feelings is the deeper topics that aren't being recognized and ultimately talked about and worked through.

Teri Hales  39:13  
Yeah. Do you find that when we feel like there is a box that we have to live in, that we feel more resentment towards people we're in relationship with, or that we're partnering with, or our spouses, maybe even our kids when they live outside of the box?

Kevin Hales  39:32  
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I would definitely see that being the case. If someone, you know, feels like their spouse is, you know, living more the way or the life that they wanted, you know, I mean, you, you and I have worked through and continue to work through some of that just between the two of us. When I was in the Air Force and deployed overseas. You were jealous. You're perhaps a little resentful. because you were stuck at home and living in a place far from home far from people you knew. And it was a really difficult hard time for you and, and it seemed like I was living in up, you know where I was. And while we were working a lot, I also had a lot of free time to myself. So that wasn't totally untrue. But that's I mean, that's one example that comes to mind.

Teri Hales  40:29  
Yeah. Vice versa, you would have preferred to have been at home. Yeah, I mean, I'd have deployed kind of against your will. 

Kevin Hales  40:37  
Sure, I mean, I've always been a homebody and I, I do like being at home. And so. So there, there was some truth to that. But you know, but it's always nice. I think even if you are working a lot, I think there is an element of it's kind of fun or cool to get away for a little bit and go do something overseas. So it's, it's yeah, it was kind of a mixed bag.

Teri Hales  41:01  
Yeah, I think it was a mixed bag for both of us, because I enjoyed getting to spend that time with our kids. But it was also exhausting, when they would wake up five nights in a row vomiting all over the place. And I was having to deal with that, and the washing machine breaking down and everything else. Yeah, right. Well, and I find what's interesting is you and I were both in our boxes at that time in our life. And some of the resentment I felt was towards the masculine part of you the things that you got to do that fit in the masculine box that I wasn't allowed to do. Resting is one of the things that I think men sometimes get to do that women don't get to do quite as easily, right. As long as you go to work and you earn a paycheck, like you get to you, you work hard, but you also get to play hard. And I find that a lot of women say that they never feel comfortable resting, because their work is never done. There's not a clear cut, like-- you're done being a mother for the day. And you know, the housework is all done, there's nothing else to do. So you now get to rest. So because there's not that clear delineation, think of a lot of women feel some intense resentment towards men getting to go hang out with the guys golf, like go on business trips, where they get to eat at nice restaurants by themselves without kids crawling on them. Having time to read books or newspapers, getting continuing education. I felt some resentment when you got your master's degree. And, you know, I was watching the kids and you were deployed and getting a master's degree. So I think sometimes when we're living in our box, even when our partner is living in their box, too, there's some resentment about the things that are in their box that we don't get to play with, right? Because it's not allowed in our box. And I think vice versa. Right? Like you and your masculine box, I'm sure looked at me and my feminine box sometimes and were like, "Well, that would be nice. It would be nice if I could do this, this and this". So--

Kevin Hales  43:00  
Yeah, yeah, I think I think that's true. It's-- and oftentimes, you'll, you'll hear stories, you know, where I don't know, let's say the man is the traditional provider, and they're working and they're complaining about how good their wife has it. And, and why are they whining about you know, X, Y and Z and, and then sometimes not always, but sometimes they're, they take care of the kids for a couple of days or a week or something while the wife is gone. And sometimes you'll hear them talk about "Wow, I didn't realize how hard this was, or I didn't realize how exhausting it was". And and so sometimes there's a better appreciation for what the other person does when you are in their shoes. But but not always, you know, sometimes there's still a very judgmental, critical view, we take the other person's role. And I, I think I tried to, you know, make space for that, that I wasn't in your shoes, and I tried to always reserve space for the fact that it's hard and it's difficult. And, you know, what you were saying was was valid and I I don't know how successful I was doing that. But I think I tried to do that.

Teri Hales  44:22  
You did a really good job. Honestly, the fact that we were able to talk about so many things. Even back then-- still in high demand religions still with our boxes of who we were supposed to be. I felt like we did a pretty good job of communicating to the best of our ability, what was okay and what was not okay, and what our feelings were as best as we could. I feel like we've gotten much better. We understand our emotions better, we're able to communicate them better. We take accountability for our own stuff a lot better, and we're able to communicate boundaries and our needs and compromise I think far better than we were able to, you know, a decade ago when we were living in England and you were deployed all the time. 

Kevin Hales  45:06  
Without a doubt. 

Teri Hales  45:07  
Yeah. Okay. The next thing I want to ask this comes from one of my listeners on the facebook group page. And if you're wanting to be a part of that, when we start up this next new year in 2023, we'll be having some discussions on there throughout the rest of December. And, you know, throughout the rest of November, so when these podcasts hit, and then through the rest of the year, we'll still be having discussions over there. But in 2023, there's some really exciting stuff happening. And we are going to be having live question and answers for every single episode, we are going to be taking your recommendations, the things you want to hear about, and making sure that those are going into podcast. So if you want to shape the podcast, if you want to make sure that what you want to hear is what we're covering, please go join the Emancipate Yourself Facebook group, and get yourself involved in the discussions. There's going to be journal prompts over there, there's going to be discussions for us to have in the community. And we'll also be talking about the question and answers that will be coming up. 

Now I will see if you want to be a part of the live question and answers because that's going to take extra support. We're going to be providing that to those who are monthly donors, even if all you are donating to the podcast is $1 a month. If all you're donating is $1 a month, you will still be included in the ability to be part of those live question and answer sessions and ask questions about the podcast. You know, ask questions about the books we're reading, bring up, you know questions from your personal life or that you've seen out in the community and we will discuss those. So we will be doing those questions and answers starting in January. And I will be hiring support to help me look at the questions, make sure that we answer those questions. And help me to be able to broadcast those. So please go over to the Emancipate Yourself Facebook group because all of the information on how to do that is going to be over there. 

You know, I think this is probably a good place to stop for this week. We have covered a lot of great stuff about what fragile masculinity and really what fragile gender roles as a whole mean, how it affects our relationships, how it affects our sense of well being. And join us next Sunday. We'll continue with part two. And we will talk about what we can do moving forward in order to heal this and to develop a sense of wholeness. We'll see you next Sunday.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai